Dr. Ethan Levine 

Welcome to another edition of the Mental Wealth Podcast. I am so delighted today to have a friend and colleague, a psychologist. in the Raleigh-Durham area, Adrian Charleston. Adrian, I hope you could give people a little bit of background about how you got to be where you are. I know we’re focusing on meditation today, but you have a really interesting life story. If you don’t mind, just for a moment and then we’ll get into the content. 

Adrienne Charleston 

Okay, I’m gonna go through it as quick as possible because it’s been a lifelong journey. So I signed up to join the military at 17. and went in at 18. And I was a paralegal, the equivalent of a paralegal on the outside. I worked trial defense. I worked on the prosecution side. By the time I left, I was a court reporter. I did it all on the legal side in the military. But when I was 25, like all the lawyers would always tell me, oh, you should be a lawyer. You talk so well, you do this, you know a lot, you do. And I’m like, I don’t want to be a lawyer. And I could not figure out what I wanted to do. and I ran into a childhood friend who was a lawyer and they were like, what are you doing? I was like, I’m in the army, I’m in school, I’m studying criminal justice. And they were like, what are you going to do with that? I was like, I don’t know. And it got me to thinking like, what do I want to do? And I realized I wanted to know more of why people did things than going through after they did it and, you know, figuring out if they’re guilty and all this other stuff. I wanted to know the why. So my curiosity of people I decided at 25, I’m gonna be a psychologist. Mind you, I didn’t have a degree. I didn’t have an associate’s. I didn’t have a bachelor’s. I didn’t have a master’s. I didn’t have anything. But that was my goal. So I finished the military. I did 12 years active. I joined the reserve as a mental health specialist so I could get some extra schooling and extra money. to pay for school. And while I was in the reserve, I finished up undergrad at Fayetteville State. And then I went on to grad school, retired from the reserves, finished up grad school, and became a psychologist at the ripe young age of 40. So I loved it. Once I realized what I wanted to do, I just honed in and did it. My goal was to be a prison psychologist because my first job in the military, I worked at the prison at Leavenworth, talking to the inmates there and giving them their legal paperwork and telling them what they can and can’t do, stuff like that. And I was like, I always wanted to work at a prison and be of service to those in prison and help them hopefully be a light and all that. So I was a prison psychologist for seven years. 

Dr. Ethan Levine 

How did you get to start thinking about the name of your business, Butterfly Flow? How did you get into thinking about things like meditation and life coaching, those sorts of things? 

Adrienne Charleston 

I was writing poetry. It’s one of my pastimes. So Butterfly Flow is actually a poem I wrote. And I did the poem and I didn’t have a name. Then people started calling me butterfly flow. They started calling me butterfly. This was before I had the business. I was just out and about doing poetry and working in community support because you know, mental health, we always got to do community support first, apparently. So I was in community support. I hadn’t had a business or anything and it just stuck. And so I just kept butterfly flow for everything. And the fact that I love butterflies kind of helped. 

Dr. Ethan Levine 

You use meditation both personally and in your professional practice. What is meditation? 

Adrienne Charleston 

For me, meditation is relaxing your conscious mind to see one, what’s in your subconscious or what you’re supposed to hear when you’re still. Because we’re always moving and we don’t take the time to be still. I actually have a saying, I have a shirt that says, praying is for talking, meditation is for listening. That’s how I distinguish the difference because some people are like, well, I pray about it, but I’m like, are you listening? Because that’s the way the meditation comes in. It comes in to where you’re listening to the things around you. You’re able to hear your subconscious. You’re not thinking and you’re not talking. You’re just there to take in what is supposed to be downloaded into you or what is already inside of you that you haven’t taken the time to hear? 

Dr. Ethan Levine 

So how do you coach people on meditation? I mean, I don’t know, is it one thing? Is it a lot of things? 

Adrienne Charleston 

It’s a couple of different things. Because everybody is different. I always start with the breathing. So when I’m teaching somebody, I’ll ask them one, do they sing? Like, have you ever sung in a choir? Have you ever played a sport? or an instrument because these three things help you breathe. You breathe in a different way doing all of those things. People who do it understand or even yoga, you breathe in a different way because they teach you belly breathing. And that is one of the best ways to breathe because it’s a slow, deep breath that goes all the way through past your lungs and into your belly. And if you played an instrument, guess what? You belly breathe. If you run track, you play a sport, you do anything else, you belly breathe. If you sing, you belly breathe. People who have done those things, it’s always a lot easier. And I find that once we get the breathing down, for people who can’t quiet their brain, those are the people who do better with guided meditation to where I talk them through things. walk them through different things in their mind, ask them to visualize certain things. And then the people who are already able to quiet their mind, they’re able to do just the sit because people are always like, I can’t sit for 30 minutes. It’s not about sitting for 30 minutes. Sometimes you can sit for two, sometimes you can sit for five. And it’s about building it up and getting to know what you’re capable of and what you’re able to do before life rushes in and takes over that moment that you’re trying to have. 

Dr. Ethan Levine 

What other kind of guidance do you give people when they’re starting into wanting to develop a meditation practice? 

Adrienne Charleston 

I always say take it slow. Do it a little bit, a little bit at a time because the little bit helps them get into it and make it more of a practice and not just something I’m trying out. 

Dr. Ethan Levine 

Do you recommend people sit by themselves or listen to music? How do you guide people that way? 

Adrienne Charleston 

It all depends on the person. So there are people who can’t do the quiet. But when you do it, I want you to be alone. So it’s up to you to decide which works best for you. Because for me, I do the quiet because I can do the quiet. Everybody’s not able. because sometimes you need, there’s a thing, I don’t know if it’s a word for it, but I know this is how I study, but not how I meditate. I need something to ignore to focus in. So some people do need the music or the guided. And I always say, test out your music. Just because it says meditation doesn’t mean it’s for you. Some of my clients, they’re like, well, I like R&B music because that’s what soothes me. That’s what gets to me. Some people do like the meditation music. Personally, I don’t like the dongs, like the bong, bong. That disturbs me every time. So I say practice and listen to different sounds and find out what frequency you need and the sounds that you need. Some people like the sounds of the birds. Some people like the rain. Some people like the thunder. So it just depends on the person as to the sound that resonates with you and actually soothes you because everybody has a different thing that makes them calm and they’re able to become actions with you. 

Dr. Ethan Levine 

So walk me through, somebody comes in. What makes you say that meditation would be a good addition to this person’s life? Because this is good for everybody. How do you approach that diagnostically? 

Adrienne Charleston 

I think it is good for everybody, but everybody is not ready and able. So sometimes I ask the questions about have they worked out some, all that good stuff. And then I ask them, have they ever tried meditation? And then I ask them, do they think it will be helpful? So some people were like, no, I can never do it. So sometimes I leave them alone, but we may come back to it. I find it helpful for people dealing with trauma. I have to give a caveat. I am not a transpersonal psychologist. However, I have studied transpersonal psychology. And what I do, I do some practices from transpersonal psychology because I’ve taken some classes and stuff. And that is a way of taking someone through meditation and pulling out their trauma. I call it pulling out the trauma and balling it up and throwing it away. But it’s a whole meditative state that takes about an hour. And it’s a practice that when I’ve done it, it’s been helpful for most of my clients. But before I do that, I have to see if they’re able to let go, because some people aren’t able to let go of the forethought and let the back thought where you keep everything in the back, in the subconscious, where you compartmentalize all those things. Sometimes they don’t want that stuff to come up, so they’ll keep protecting it. So if I know or feel from talking to them that they’re not gonna be able to allow that to come up. I’ll wait a little while until they get comfortable. And sometimes we’ll just practice regular meditation, do some guided meditation through, I find their favorite place. And so we’ll go through the woods. We might go to the beach. We might go for a flight, depending on what they like. And I’ll guide them through different things. And once they’re able, and I think that they’re able to do the transpersonal, Meditation will do that and it’s been very helpful for a lot of my clients. 

Dr. Ethan Levine 

I assume you’re describing what transpersonal psychology is, but if you could talk a little bit about what that really means. 

Adrienne Charleston 

The best way I describe it to people who don’t know, I describe it almost like an EMDR, almost like hypnosis. because you’re taking people into a different state of mind. You’re taking them into that meditative state. And then when you’re talking to them, they’re hopefully talking to you from the meditative state, from what you’re guiding them through, from what they see, from what they’re experiencing, and how they’re taking the information that you’re giving them and writing it like it’s described in the actual way that you do the session. 

Dr. Ethan Levine 

So are you guiding them at the front end to get into that state and then working with them there? So effectively they are, it’s a version of meditation. 

Adrienne Charleston 

Yes. 

Dr. Ethan Levine 

Okay. Start out meditating. You recommend people just sit down or go get something online, an app, or how would somebody go about that? 

Adrienne Charleston 

I tell people to start with the simplest place, YouTube. They have so many sounds, they have different guided ones, and that’s where you explore to see what you like, see if you like the sounds. I’m gonna have mine on YouTube soon. I have a meditation album I’m gonna put on YouTube. So I say YouTube, just Google it. You’re going to get a lot. So it can be overwhelming. So I would say if you know something or kind of almost what you’re looking for, you can put that in. But if you don’t, just explore a little bit at a time. Don’t overdo it. Don’t think you have to try everything. If you hear one sound you don’t like, that’s not for you. And then keep going. Just a little bit at a time. If you want to try the quiet meditation, sitting in quiet, one to two minutes starting out. go up to the five, go up to the seven, go up to the 10, and then see how far you can go with just the quiet because there’s no need to try to sit down for 30. 

Dr. Ethan Levine 

How does somebody do that? Do you set a timer for 2 minutes or you just sit? 

Adrienne Charleston 

Yeah, you sit, you set a timer, you clear your mind. When you first start, The world is going to keep jumping in and you have to keep saying, no, get out, clear your mind. No, get out, clear your mind. Or however you talk to yourself, because everybody talks to themselves differently. I tell my thoughts, go sit down somewhere. I’m doing this. And they’ll try to come in. I’m like, no. You can’t come in, sit down somewhere. And every time I think about this and I try to tell people how to do it, I always think of Ghostbusters when they were like, clear your mind, clear your mind. And then the Stay Puft marshmallow man shows up. So some things are still going to pop up no matter how much you try to clear your mind, but you have to tell yourself, get out of there, get out of there and then just be able to sit. 

Dr. Ethan Levine 

I’m curious about your own journey with meditation. When did you start and how do you practice now? 

Adrienne Charleston 

I don’t know when I actually started. I will say being from a big family, I don’t know if it was meditation, but I think it was, because I have four siblings and my parents. And at one time I had two cousins that lived. So it was like 9 people in a four bedroom house. So I would hide in closets. There was a spot under the bunk bed in the room I shared with my sister. I would crawl under there, get under blankets. Like sometimes I just needed time to myself and being the youngest, somebody’s always messing with you. I’ve always been a, I need a moment person. So I think it started back then and now I use it to calm down. Recently I was at the physical therapist and they were like, I need you to relax your arm. And then I did it. They were like, how do you do that so fast? How is it? But I’m so used to getting myself to relax that it’s kind of now automatic. And I can do meditation with myself. I can do visualizations. Sometimes it happens so fast, it’s scary. It’s one of those things that I’ve been doing it for so long that I can put myself in a relaxed state quickly to calm down, to get myself together. Sometimes to just think if too much is going on, I’ll just sit and say, okay, what do I need to concentrate on? What needs to come forward? What needs to go back? And it’ll work itself out, but that comes with a lot of meditation and practice. 

Dr. Ethan Levine 

You help me with meditation. I’ve gotten into a very relaxed state and then I have some moment that I want to get myself back to feeling that way. How do you guide people towards that or what should someone do? 

Adrienne Charleston 

It depends on what the moment is. What kind of moment you trying to get back to? 

Dr. Ethan Levine 

I’ll give you a really mundane one. Somebody’s going to the dentist and they’re getting a crown or a cavity filled and they would like to feel peaceful because that kind of situation, that would be helpful. 

Adrienne Charleston 

I’m not going to say that’s an easy one because again, it takes practice, but it will be one of those things where we practice going to your happy space. I said sometimes I can just sit and things calm down immediately. It has to be done enough to where it’s more of an automatic People do get anxious going to the dentist or the doctor or first time meeting somebody. And you sit for a little bit, and if you practiced enough, and I just keep having to say practice enough because you can’t do it the day before and then think it’s gonna happen immediately because you’ve not been to your happy place enough if you just invented it yesterday. So it’s gonna be one of those things where you can go back to over and over and then it becomes easier and easier for you to get there. So when you sit in that dentist chair and you close your eyes, you go to your happy place. Even though you’re getting work done on your mouth, you’re in your happy place and you’re telling yourself, I’m okay, I’m in my happy place, things are good. You can take yourself there after you practice quite a bit. 

Rob 

Is there a difference between when someone comes in for something like anxiety and then someone comes in as an executive that wants a business goal that they’re trying to achieve? Are those two different tracks that you take with them or is it basically the same process? 

Adrienne Charleston 

No, it’s completely different. When it comes to meditation for anxiety, it’s more about calming yourself. So we’ll do more of calming exercises, more of talking to yourself more of, I know that sounds weird talking to yourself, but that’s pretty much what it is. Telling yourself, okay, I’m here, I’m okay. Bringing yourself back to the present. Cause with anxiety is, you know, fear of the future, fear of what’s gonna happen. And so that type of meditation is more about bringing you back to the present, letting you know you’re okay, letting you know you’re here. For executives and people working toward a goal, That type of meditation would be more of the sitting quiet, asking yourself a question before you start the meditation. Meditate and then listen for the answer. So that would be more of a quiet meditation, not a guided meditation. I believe that we all have the answers for ourselves. We just have to be quiet enough to hear it. 

Rob 

The main follow-up to that is if someone that’s, say, is starting a small business and they’re starting this process now, Is there sort of a program that you would recommend? Is there a process that they recommend to start that if they wanted to say sign up with someone that is a meditation expert? 

Adrienne Charleston 

When you’re starting a new business, one of those things that you need, it’s going to be more than meditation. It’s going to be, you know, setting a schedule, getting not only yourself together, but figuring out who you need in different spaces. And meditation can help, but I think you also may need a guide or life coach or business coach to help with all of the other things that come up with that. Because it’s a lot. 

Dr. Ethan Levine 

100%. Adrian, I know you use vision boards and that’s a different version of meditation. If you could speak to that for a minute, that’d be helpful. 

Adrienne Charleston 

Yeah. So when I do the vision board, I do a workshop. I know the simple term is vision board, but it’s really for me when I do it, it’s really goal oriented and we sit and talk and figure out what you want. What do you want for the next year? Not just, I’m gonna put some pictures to make it look pretty. No, what do you want? Then we talk about how you’re gonna get there and then going back to who’s gonna help you, what you need. We do all of those things before we even look at a board. It’s a process of figuring out what you want, what you need, and how you’re going to get there with the vision boards. And then we go to the vision of what it’s going to look like. And then we go to the putting the board together and everything. But you have actionable goals to go with it and actionable work, not just I’m going to put all this stuff up here and then we’re going to see what happens. 

Rob 

I was wondering, Adrian, whether you see meditation as sort of the opposite end of the attention economy. We sort of live in an attention economy where everything is a distraction, there’s a cell phone going off in every direction. I’m wondering if you see a rising demand for meditation guidance, meditation practices based on the way our economy, our social life is the direction we’re headed in. 

Adrienne Charleston 

Yeah, absolutely. Nobody has a quiet moment. And I’m not gonna say nobody. Most people don’t have a quiet moment. People take their phones. Look, mine is sitting right here. This right here goes everywhere with everybody. The bathroom, appointments, brushing your teeth, going to bed. Something is always going on. And meditation is a good way to help silence things for yourself. One, before jumping into stuff, morning meditation is a good thing. Nighttime meditation is a great thing because it helps you release, relax, and get into your sleep space. And I think afternoon meditation is good as well, especially if you’re having a hard time recentering yourself for the day. So I think it should be one of the things that people are looking at and leaning more into because something is always going on all the time. 

Mukund 

Got a question on meditation apps. What are your thoughts on it and do you have any suggestions for our listeners? 

Adrienne Charleston 

I don’t use any meditation apps. So I don’t have any suggestions. I think it’s just like everything else. See what works best for you. Look into it. See if it’s going to be something on there for you. I’ve not used them mainly because I do my own for myself and my clients. I’ve made tapes. I’ve made voice clips for clients like minutes or more. Like if we do a meditation that they really like, I’ll go back, do the script for it, and then do voiceover for it and make that for them because some people like it personalized for them and what they’re doing. And I do that for clients as well. 

Mukund 

Are they affirmation scripts? 

Adrienne Charleston 

More guided meditation. I take them from the beginning to the relaxation and then getting them, especially for people who are just starting out, getting them to their happy place. So it’s like a journey. I take them on a journey there and then I take them on a journey back to reality all within that time. 

Mukund 

What can be your suggestion for somebody who’s listening who’s in a high pressure job just to put their mind at ease, to relax? Would you mind sharing a couple of points? 

Adrienne Charleston 

Yes. One thing is a lot of people know about the four count. You breathe in for four, you breathe out for four and do that a few times. That is a good one. I do like taking a break. High pressure jobs, sometimes you have to be at your desk. It’s a thing I like to do. You have to feel the tension and the stress to release it. So you pull up on your chair and you push down with your feet at the same time. And so your whole body is tensed up and then you release it and you’re able to relax because you tensed up everything and you released it. And then you can start the breathing because now you’re on your way to relaxing. And sometimes people with high pressure jobs, you’re going to have to practice at home so you can get to that space quicker and quicker, easier and easier. But the best things at work until you’re able to get to your happy place quickly is to do the breathing close your eyes. Don’t let people think that you’re asleep. Take a minute or two to just tell yourself, I’m okay. I’m calm. I’m here. I’m ready to go to the next thing. And sometimes you have to be able to switch because if you have a lot going on, a lot is coming at you and you have to switch gears quickly and learning how to take that moment for yourself to say, okay, all right, now I’m able to go to this quickly. That is very helpful. 

Mukund 

Was this something you experienced when you were on the law side of things earlier in your career? Was it a high pressure environment? 

Adrienne Charleston 

Yeah, the military, it’s hard to find time and space. My space was in the bathroom. So just as a kid, when I would hide in the closet, you couldn’t hide in the bathroom in a house with nine people because somebody would have to go. So in the military, I’d be like, oh, I’ll be back. And I would go hide in the bathroom for a few minutes to relax and get myself back together. So I would say at work, if you can find your space where you can just go for just a few minutes, not hours, we’re not saying leave. We’re saying to be able to relax, meditate, get your mind back on track for just a few minutes, find that space wherever it may be. 

Mukund 

People practicing meditation or starting off How often do you think they should? Meaning, is it every day you suggest, couple of days a week or? 

Adrienne Charleston 

Every day if possible, because you want it to become part of your routine. Because if you start one day and then don’t do it the next, it’s easier to not do it the next and the next and the next. But if you decide I’m gonna do this every day, once, you know, they say 21 days, but then they changed it, you know, for things to become a habit. But after a while, If you don’t do it, you’ll miss it because this is what helps you and get you started or end in the day. So I always tell people to do whatever part of the day helps them the most. I prefer morning and I do suggest morning for most people because if you can start your day off in a good, calm, meditative state, sometimes it helps. the rest of the day go because you’re like, okay, I’ve spent time with myself. I am okay. I am good. And then you can start the day in a happier disposition. And all of that, being happy and everything is all about your perception of things. So I think it helps people start their day off a little bit better. So I would absolutely say daily. 

Mukund 

And morning is better. 

Adrienne Charleston 

Yes, Night is good. Morning kind of sets the day off. 

Mukund 

Do you also suggest journaling to your clients? 

Adrienne Charleston 

Absolutely. And I do believe, I’m glad you said that because I didn’t say that. I do believe it goes hand in hand because sometimes things will come up during meditation. And if you don’t write them down because they came from your subconscious, you forget. So I always recommend meditation. Have a notebook, have a pen, because we don’t want people on their phone because you open the phone, you’re gonna do something else. So notebook, pen, write down what came up for you so you can process it later if it needs to be processed or sometimes you just got to put it there and see what comes of it. So I do absolutely believe in journaling. I love journaling. After meditation, when you first wake up to capture your dreams, because that’s also before your conscious mind wakes all the way up, get everything out that came up at night. I love it because you get the most answers about yourself during those times. 

Dr. Ethan Levine 

Do you encourage people to do journal work at capturing their dreams, meaning putting a journal by your bedside? So if you wake up at 2 A.m. in the middle of a dream, write it down for whatever. 

Adrienne Charleston 

Yes. Because every dream is telling you something about you, no matter who’s in it, no matter what’s going on, whether it’s a bad dream or a good dream, even though it may seem bad to you, it may not be a bad dream. Might be scary at the time, but it’s still your subconscious getting up and telling you something and showing you something about you. 

Dr. Ethan Levine 

Would you say the dream state is similar to meditation? 

Adrienne Charleston 

I think so. I think it taps into those parts of the brain that we try to, that the conscious mind pushes back while it’s awake. 

Mukund 

Have people come to you for any addiction-related help? 

Adrienne Charleston 

They have. I don’t do a lot. I did a lot in community support, so I kind of got away from it after that, because co-mental health and drug things, it’s a lot. and sometimes is difficult to get people away from those. So I leave that to the drug and addiction specialist and then stick to the mental health side because it is one of the more difficult areas to work in. 

Rob 

Could you give us a quick individual story of a patient that has overcome some difficulty with meditation? 

Adrienne Charleston 

Yes. So I’ll start with, I’ll do a transpersonal session. So Transpersonal session can be a little scary for some people just because the very beginning, you do see things. You do, when I ask you to bring certain people forward or certain things forward, they show up because you’ve asked them to for yourself. So I’ve had people stop at the very beginning and they’re like, oh no, this is too scary. I saw whatever you asked me showed up and they stopped immediately. So we’ll do some other work and instead of the transpersonal session, we’ll do different types of meditation. And then later on, like some weeks later, I’ve been able to go back and they’re like, they’ll tell me, they’re like, okay, I’m ready now. We can do it. And so they’ve done it and then they get all the way through it. And transpersonal normally ends or by the middle with tears because it’s getting to the root of a lot of things. And it’s helping people see themselves, because that’s what it’s more about, is getting to the root of yourself and seeing yourself. 

Dr. Ethan Levine 

Can you think of a particular story, anonymous, of course, where somebody had made a profound difference? 

Adrienne Charleston 

Yeah, so in the transpersonal, I asked you to bring your guides or anyone else that may want to show up. And I’ve had more than one person bring, like loved ones would come and show up to help guide them through the session and like grandparent, a parent. And for me, those moments are, because I’m like, oh, I didn’t know that person was going to show up for you. But that’s who came forward to help them and guide them along this journey to find more of themselves and I wasn’t purposely doing it. So when that happens, that is something very deep. So it can get very deep and I never know what’s going to happen or who’s going to show up. 

Dr. Ethan Levine 

If you’re familiar with Senoia Dream, there’s a tribe in Africa. This is where the Senoia, that’s where it originated from, where They take people, it’s very much like transpersonal, take people back into the dream and you speak to the people in the dream to try to understand it. And sometimes through that process they can resolve things that were very much in the subconscious. It’s a very interesting process. thank you so much for taking the time with us today. We’re only touching the surface of your experiences and your expertise. 

Adrienne Charleston 

Yes, thank you all so much for having me.  

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