Pedal My Way

Mukund
Hello and welcome to Paloma Way podcast where we talk about anything related to cycling and fitness. I’m your host, Mukund Murali. If you’re a fan of the show, please remember to subscribe to this podcast and follow the website paddlemyway.com. Also follow at paddle my way on Instagram to let me know of your cycling and fitness goals.

Hey, Rob, good afternoon.

Rob
Hey, how are you?

Mukund
Good, Rob. Good. Last week we ended the episode wanting to talk a little bit about issues facing men, especially the mental aspect of it, and how some of the impediments which we believe are our handicap might not be right. So we can talk a little bit about that from our experience. From playing sports and even life in general, right, would you want to? Lead off on this.

Rob
Yeah. So, it got into an interesting point last week where we. Talked about some of the roadblocks. Men in particular, face, and when we’re talking about physical health or mental health, is obviously the foundation to that, because if you’re not in a good mental state, you’re probably not ready to improve upon your physical state. So. Some of the things that or the topics that we got into last week, I thought it it probably merited us speaking about them more specifically in like a mental health focused podcast episode. So I thought we’d talk about a little bit about. Our individual experiences with mental health, let’s say mental health obstacles that we sort of. Put in our. Own way or our brains have put in our own way and things we sort of not necessarily regret about what the actions we’ve taken, but maybe things that we could improve upon or maybe can be sort of. Somebody else can align their experiences with ours and sort of get something from it because they think we’re all sort of in general, we’re all sort of coming from the same place of wanting to improve our health, wanting to improve our understanding of each other and the world. Around us and. These sort of. Although you know. Mukund and our experts, obviously I’m I’m not an expert on on mental health by any stretch of the imagination. Yeah. You and I have talked about this in general. It’s really that we are excited to talk about these topics and we are motivated to talk about these topics. And we enjoy helping people in general, helping people improve themselves in their lives and. We’ve talked about the idea that men in particular. Don’t talk about. Big topics we sort of, and I’m saying this in general, there are there are men that obviously are great at being open and being communicative and understanding and empathetic and all those good things. I I myself try to be those things and I probably could work better at them and I’m by no stretch of the imagination saying I am. Able to optimize our mental health at all, but I am saying from my experience there are certain things that I think other people can benefit from and then that’s true of everybody’s individual experience from their own life and improving their own mental health and the steps that they’ve taken to to do that. And so. Today like I think. We can start. With the idea of fear, do you? Think that’s a good place to start?

Mukund
Actually, I was thinking along the same lines as well Rob in terms of. Different aspects I know. Again, right. We’re not covering everything and anything under the men’s mental health umbrella. What we have experienced, at least me and you is at least common things such as fear, stress, identity, to name a few of them. Which I have personally dealt with, or rather faced if we can start with fear generally.

Rob
Yeah. So it’s one of those things that men. For myself, I think of myself as like I can’t do a certain thing or I can’t achieve this goal that I want to achieve. And why is that? And sometimes what it is is the idea of the fear of various outcomes taking place. And it could be as simple as, for example, if you if you’re afraid of spiders, right, we we don’t understand this, this creature. We don’t understand what it is much about it. It’s the fear of the unknown. Right. It’s that idea of what? What is the outcome of my interaction with this creature? The idea of the spider is sort of metaphor for any sort of. Unknown, easy to write off. Fear, whether it’s fear of failing at sports or fear of failing at school, or fear fear. Of job loss. We fear the unknown and what that is, and I think men in general, I can speak in very general terms. The fear that men experience most is embarrassment. Men are afraid of being embarrassed. Whether it’s being rejected by a woman we like or playing a sport and not being good at it and being embarrassed in front of our friends or. Or even as simple as choosing a new shirt or choosing new clothing of some kind. Being embarrassed because it doesn’t reflect the the style of everyone else. I am the last place to talk about style. I have no style, but I think in general men are afraid to look, to be embarrassed. What do you think?

Mukund
Actually you do have. A very good point in terms of embarrassment, fear of embarrassment rather. Taking it a step further in terms of a social structure where we are embarrassed of our failures, I think that has two aspects to it which you mentioned in terms of finding your partner. And being in a good standing within your peers, right when you said, you know, playing a sport, you know, swimming it’s the same. So team Sport, you’re more exposed to a team environment playing soccer. So for example, if even playing soccer, you don’t know the basics of it, you can connect the your leg to the ball. You really suck at it. But. If you are embarrassed that puts a complete block on the game itself because you are, that’s something you experience that you are saying. I can’t pay this. How am I going to play this? In a team setting but. If the team is supportive of you. Is able to teach you. How to do it then your feel is more constructive. They are proactively coming to help you rather than you getting help, which I think is a much nicer social. Situation where people understand you, they look out for you, they come and help you for the mutual good. Right. So you might be able to relate it more because I’m sure you have you have experienced or you know you have paid people at both ends of the spectrum, people who really suck like me at soccer or people who are like Ronaldo, for example, and anywhere in between. So knowing you, you might be the person to go and proactively help them in terms of, you know, hey. Mukund, you know. I know you are having some difficulty connect the more going to try ABCD. You know like these. 4 tips for. Example rather than me. Being embarrassed and just pulling myself out of. Where if given the opportunity, or rather the feeling of welcomes from my peers, I might be able to #1 be happy about the decision I made in terms of trying to play soccer. And #2, especially in a team setting, I have the feeling that you have. I have my teams backing. Right. I think this goes a long way in terms of alleviating fear. Especially for guys who for whom failure, especially in a public setting. Is kind of next to death, for example, it’s and from. I’m sure you know this public speaking people fear public speaking more than death itself just because.

Rob
Yeah. They, they, it’s like people always say they would people. Would rather be in the casket than delivering the eulogy at. The funeral.

Mukund
Exactly because I think this goes to it right? I’ve I’ve given public speeches. I’m not great at public speaking and people are comfortable. Like, you know, people made fun of it and people have come and congratulated me for giving a good one. Being me, I know myself. I would really not care for people not giving me the credit. Because if they’re better than me, they’ll be giving the speech kind of attitude I take. Right. So it’s like people in TV, you know, making a fool of themselves and people making fun of them. But I think of it the other way. They are brave enough to make a fool of themselves, which shows a much stronger mental attitude on them than the people making fun of them, because they would not go on stage to make be made a. Fool of doesn’t make sense.

Rob
That’s a hundred 100% as I was just about to say. Something similar about. Someone that recently from my experience joined us to play soccer, we have probably now about 15. So we we play, we play usually 7 aside and then we have one guy who can. It’d be like a sub for either team if. We get hurt. And then we had someone join us recently who has never really played soccer even to any any sort of basic level. And after the game, they came to me and said, you know, you know, I’m sorry like I. Wasn’t very good. You know I didn’t. I think they miscontrolled the pass and it led to the opposition scoring a goal. We’re just playing with our friends, so really the score, the score is irrelevant but and and it really wouldn’t matter either way, even if it was a professional game. The score is. I mean, it’s not life or death. Right, So what I said to that person is. This is that everybody here. I would rather you be here than not be here. Everybody here, even if you make a mistake, everyone here is so happy that you’re here and trying something. You know from from the meanest guy to the nicest guy on this field right now. They are all happy that you’re here. And you’re you’re trying.

Mukund
I’m sure a new member would never leave you after hearing that, because that’s something guys don’t talk about, guys. Talk in motion like this, right?

Rob
Yeah, well.

Mukund
From what I’ve experienced. They don’t. They will… they will be the first to criticize somebody from what I have experienced. No, no guy has proactively. Being emotionally visible to another guy just because they believe it kind of removes. What it is being a man, if that makes sense, right? What you said or what you did to a new player shows who you are. Everybody’s gone with emotions. It’s just our mental barriers that keeps it down for men especially just because of how society perceives us to be or expects us to be, which I think is not. It’s not right, right?

Rob
No, 100% and it’s based on ideas and ideals that are, you know, maybe a century old. At least 50 years old. We we’ve come. A long way as a society, and I think it’s time in general for men to be able to. Separate the idea of. Masculinity and the idea that you can’t be kind and compassionate as a man because that is somehow detracts from your image as a as a macho, strong man. If anything, I think it’s more difficult to be kind because you have to sort of be thoughtful and you have to think about others. And you have to. You have to do things in a way. That considers another person’s points of view and that’s more much more difficult than just to be rude to people or mean to people. It’s or. And to dismiss people. But I think the idea is men, and this comes back to what I’m saying about fear. I think men are also. And again, this is in general. There are great guys out there who are not like this. But I’m saying in general and I’ve been like, I’ve been this guy before. You are afraid to be nice. Because there are people around you that will take that niceness as a, as a weakness, and you’re put in a position where you can’t really be that nice guy because your brain says if you are nice in this situation, this bad thing will happen. Whether it’s like someone will not invite you to. To to go. Out to the bar afterwards because you’re not that kind of guy and you wanna hang out with all all the guys afterwards. But if you’re nice to the new. Lesson they the the the other guys will welcome you in the same way at at some point as as you know as we age, we have to sort of remove the idea that we.

Rob
We shouldn’t be beholden to other people’s stereotypes of themselves.

Mukund
I agree with you. One thing I was going to mention was from an emotional point of view. Men don’t express it. Much because of, you know what you and I talked about being society kind of expects them to. There’s no written rule, right? And what actually helps a man is. Taking the emotion out on himself, what I mean is. He can cry. Men can cry. We are all born with the ability of this emotional release. Just because there is good for our mental health, I have cried. I mean, I’m not. Ashamed to admit. It it’s it’s part of human nature and also. There’s no real shame in accepting you are afraid of something. For example, God forbid if one of your close family members or something is on his or her death bed. That’s part of life and it’s natural and normal to feel sadness, to feel fear, to feel emotion at that stage.

Rob
100% and and and.

Mukund
Right, not only. At life’s end. But even in other situations where it’s something not under your control and your scared of the unknowns, it’s fine to feel fear. That’s kind of our coping mechanism.

Rob
Exactly and a. 100% and part of the problem is by by sort of stopping yourself having reallocating that energy from fear to anger of these other sort of emotions, you’re just reinforcing the the, the, the negative thing within society. So you. Exactly what you’re saying? Is you you repress this emotion of fear and of you know, empathy and and all these connective feelings of belonging to society. If you repress those feelings, they obviously are gonna find an output, because that’s just the way our bio mechanical processes work is, you know, we have this energy. It gets out in some way and it will come out as a different thing. It’ll come out as anger or a mistake in some other thing because your brain is not, you’re not thinking correctly. It’s without expressing your emotion without being able to cry or be able. To admit your fear. You’re only gonna. Hurt yourself in the long term in terms of your natural bio biomechanical mechanisms.

Mukund
100% and I think mentioned one of the previous you know previous episodes or when we talked I take the stress out on my sandbags right. I think I mentioned to have a bad day at work or something in my life is not going well. I’m really bothered by it interviewing with somebody I take out on my sandbags. And that and that’s an outlet for me and this also helped me be productive because, you know, I lift weights. So this kind of pulls me out. So it’s kind of two birds with one strong kind of a situation.

Rob
And that that’s. Exactly what we’re talking about in terms of the the connection between our mental and physical states. I think that the problem is with that is you are able to make that decision. A lot of people aren’t able to make that decision, right? Like so I. I always wonder like how does a person in general go from? I have this negative feeling I’m going to. Work out. Instead of being angry about it. How how does that mechanism happen and? How do they, you know, how do we get to the state where when we’re sort of improving ourselves rather than detracting from ourselves by reinforcing these sort of negative emotions and having a negative impact on our physical health?

Mukund
So I mean, so I think I know the question you’re asking is how can somebody have a productive outlet for their emotional?

Rob
Yeah, yeah, basically like how, how how do you decide to be that guy?

Mukund
I mean, again, from my experiences, I know myself and. Weightlifting has been a way for stress relief in general for me. Another person in you know in in other situation he might like boxing, for example. That’s another amazing way to relieve stress. Other person can be walk in the park connecting with nature that has virtually scientifically been proven to reduce stress. Anything can be swimming any physical activity. From what I have researched has always led to stress mitigation activities, right? The other thing is talking to. So the conversation we’re having now, it’s kind of, you know, an outlet for both of us in terms of what we are going through or we are sharing right openly. We’re sharing what we.

Rob
100%.

Mukund
Think people can talk to therapists which they think is bad. Talking to a therapist or a medical professional, which I don’t believe they are there for reason. Their profession exists for reason and if you need to talk to somebody? If not your family or friends, because if the topic you’re trying to discuss is something personal, what better than to talk to a stranger whose only job is to listen to you? Right? So.

Rob
Yeah, I mean there. There are so many services now online, especially right. You see people that are they’re offering to speak to a relative stranger. Obviously they’re qualified mental health professionals, but it’s it’s more affordable than ever. Now, just to speak to someone online and to have that outlet and to have that sort of cathartic experience where you sort of are able to talk about your fears and your emotions. And to have that connection with someone where ordinarily you might not have that output, and it’s great that those services now exist and I. Think they are? Obviously, huge net benefit to society in general. Where a lot. Sort of. Especially younger men may not have that in their lives at all, like they don’t have people that they can speak to and just having someone, whether they are a stranger and usually they are. But you, as you said, it’s talk therapy as as as has huge benefits and it’s obviously proven that over time that’s why it’s become so popular. That people, whether the you, you know. You’re speaking to someone in uh. In an office, or whether you’re speaking to someone through a computer it. It can because of the the neuro chemistry, it can change your. Well, it’ll change your life, but it just changes the way you think. Change your mindset and and understand that there are people out there who can listen to you and provide guidance on your life. And that is a huge benefit to individuals of all ages really right.

Mukund
Of course. And we are social animals, whether people like it or not, we cannot. Survive by ourselves. We need to be a part of a society, a community where. Our strength has been the determining factor for our survival throughout the ages, right. We cannot survive by ourself alone in a forest in the jungle. We’ll 100%. We’ll we’ll be dead if we even have like two or three people with us that form the small community where we can look look after ourselves. Right, right. So this still exists even in an emotional state where we talk to people, we exchange ideas. Calm us down. We kind of lose that reasoning. We always keep thinking about or being a man is always being tough. Like you said, we only bottle up your emotions. It’s going to come out. In a more. Unwanted form, right? So there’s nothing wrong in being emotional or being aware of your feelings of your mental health. Because if society holds us in a high regard in terms of strength, mental strength is one of the things we need to be strong at, right, not only the physical strength or, you know, or appearance of a strong guy. Strong guy is also strong mental. Also you know is also responsible for his mental well-being. I look at it that way.

Rob
Yes, 100% and that that sort of also connects to things like anxiety. Right. Rates of anxiety, especially among men, are incredibly high, and they’re rising, and the data suggests that the Internet is is a large part of that. It’s obviously we we obviously, we are a society now. That that is. Connected to every single part of the world and we’re getting 24 hour. Updates on every single topic you can imagine. So people are more anxious because they, you know, they’re hearing updates throughout all sorts of social media profiles, and they’re also they are, we are sort of training our brains a. Little bit to react to. Negative headlines, right, it’s it’s it’s training ourselves to sort of. I’ll be always on the alert. It’s like if you we go back to the jungle metaphor. And by the way, I think maybe I would. I would probably last about 7 seconds. If you put me in the jungle, if that.

Mukund
I think it’s a. It’s a. Spiders, isn’t it?

Rob
It’s definitely inspired us and also it’s not. Just the spiders. It’s the idea. That I might slip on the vine like I’m I’m clumsy. Like I can’t, you know. Anyway, it would be very dangerous to put. Me in the jungle that’s, that’s for sure. It would be, yeah, I I would need Google. Maps to get out immediately. Even then, even then, I probably won’t get out. No. So it it goes back to the idea of what is that anxiety? Is it the things that go on around us or is it things that we? We are. How our brains are focusing on regardless of whether it’s the it’s reality or not, right, the Internet, although it’s actual things happening around the world, is not. A what’s called like a a clear and present danger to your immediate situation. Something happening on the other side of the world, although reading about it and it’s. You know there. Are tragedies that happen it? It doesn’t. It’s not a danger. To you directly.

Mukund
In terms of anxiety, is the normal day life you and I go through it. Everybody goes through it. You and I work. For living what I was going to mention was the anxiety at the back of your head at least, is how good you are. At your job, it’s always. You’re always at risk of losing it. So what happens if you lose if you lose? Your job, that’s always. A source of anxiety, especially for a guy just because he is expected to be the breadwinner, kind of be the. Within quotes, man of the house. Right. So even if people don’t accept it, I’m 100% sure that’s at the back of everyone’s or every guy’s mind, or is again, who are is, you know, a nine to five kind of a person who was dependent on somebody else for a job. And people making it out on their own. I mean more, more power to them. But for the rest of the 99% of of of us, that’s a source of constant worry just because you need a source of income to live. In today’s society, right?

Rob
Do you think that’s why so many people now are people have their main job and they have like, a side hustle, whether it’s selling things on Etsy or it’s?

Mukund
Ignoring the two income is nice to have part of it, we need to have a safety net.

Rob
That that anxiety is. Connected to the idea of. As you said, when you you you know we’re we’re trying to sort of survive on a societal level. We’re trying to keep our jobs and and keep a house. And you know, we’re trying to make sure our family is healthy and all those good things and obviously the fear of losing our job is my identity is tied up in. I am I am able to provide for my family I. Am able to do these things sort of. Day-to-day I’m able to have a job and pay my bills and do general activities and be in in general good health. Luckily, but we know that that can, as you said, that can be taken away, we can lose our jobs, our health can decline and that anxiety is is, I think. Personally, I think for me it’s driven by that identity like. I I I. Definitely have struggled with anxiety. My anxiety is one of those big challenges that I’ve faced in various circumstances. It’s it’s, you know, you feel as if. Your brain is your brain can take control. Sometimes your brain can come up with, you know, a billion different negative things. That could happen. But I think. Part of the challenge that a lot of men have is, as you said, we don’t control the outcome of a lot of these things. We don’t certainly don’t control the outcome of our health. Our health can decline at any point. And really, it’s just luck. You know who makes it to a certain age? Who doesn’t get injured? You can do general things to stay in good health, but we we are. We are sort of driven by fortune and we we live each day. As fortunately as as. Sorry, we live each day as healthy as we can, but really it’s due to luck. Whether we are healthy the next day.

Mukund
Yeah, talking about upright, I am still amazed I am here the way I am talking to you because anything could have taken us out of the equation, you know, at any particular point, even now, I’m not sure I’ll be alive tomorrow. Right the way, the way things. Are going.

Rob
Yeah, and this is this is my, this is how not. That I’ve gotten over anxiety in general, but. This is how. I’ve certainly gotten. Better I have fewer anxiety, anxiety attacks. Firstly, I spoke to. A therapist for a while and that really helped. But secondly, I started to. Through that therapy sort of understand that. You sort of have to relinquish. Control at a certain point. You have to say look. The economy can take a dive. You could lose your job. Your health can change. That that is not. That is not something you’ve done. It it’s a, it’s. A ****** thing that can happen. It’s a bad thing that can happen. But it’s not something that you’ve done to influence that you can do your best, and that’s all you can do. And if a bad thing happens, you that’s not within your control. There are, there are certain things that we are within your control, but there are always things that are outside of your control. And I think a lot of men have difficulties with that idea that. We are, we have an environment that is in constant flux. Things are changing and we can’t control that change, whether it’s age, whether it’s our hair turning grey, whether it’s, you know, our bodies. Mining or or the economy being destroyed by bankers or wealthy individuals all over the place. We have difficulty with the idea that we don’t control the next day. What happens the next day, but the next day is almost irrelevant, right? The next day is not. Is not your concern right now. The next day, is it? It will happen, but you can just do your best and you will eventually. Get to that next day and you will you. Will tackle you’ll. Tackle those things as best you can, like. That’s all you can really do, and anxiety is driven by that, right? It’s driven by. Tomorrow it’s driven. By what is tomorrow? What am I gonna do? What if this happens? What if that? Happens, but really. That’s all irrelevant. It hasn’t happened. It’s not real. Not saying that anxiety isn’t real. I’ve definitely felt it, and it’s definitely a real feeling. It just has no. Let’s say it’s not driven by a a factual thing. It’s driven by what your brain decides to create at that time, and that that can shift. Over time, so. Going back to the idea.

Mukund
I will interrupt, but I want to mention that in times of stress, instead of making an attempt to address the cause of stress, I think we are at a stage where we just have to develop some coping mechanism to deal with. What I mean is, I know the world is not going the way any of us expect it to. Instead of trying to solve it. We at least as individuals in you know, in no real position to make drastic changes. What we can at least, or at least what I can do is better ways to cope, better way to deal with it rather than trying to change. Anything because attempt is going to be futile just because of how minuscule. At least I am into a bigger scheme of things. So I’m at the receiving end of it, and I should. I should. Be I should be in a patient to process it rather than worry about it because that’s the only way for us to deal with it going forward, if that makes sense.

Rob
That’s a great way of putting it. You should be prepared to process things rather than to deal with. It’s like you. We can’t. We can’t deal with every bad thing that happens, but we can process it in our brains in a in a healthy way, and understand that if a bad thing happens, it doesn’t change who we are. It doesn’t change our identity of ourselves. It if anything, overcoming or being. Sustaining ourselves and and helping others through bad things is is a net positive to our identity as a. As an individual, we can sort of improve our upon ourselves and improve upon the idea of what we want to become by understanding. That we are. We are not. The anxiety and what the fear and and and and those feelings and those thoughts are telling us we are not, that we control our own identity. We don’t control what happens to us, but we control control our reaction to things as you said.

Mukund
Exactly. Exactly. So we talked a little bit about fear. We talked a little bit about stress and about identity on who we are and what we can do to safeguard all those things. I know that this half an hour was not. Good enough? Obviously not, because such a wide topic that a little more discussion is needed. So let’s pick this up next week. Rob, if if you’re OK with it, I think we will. You know, maybe go into a little more. Details or a little more examples of what we dealt with, how we cope with it right. Again, this is just two guys talking where we. Hope another guy finds some sort of relation to his life. You know, maybe we are able to help somebody. We are. We all go through. It that was, that was my intention. At least, you know, in bringing this topic up. So let’s continue this conversation next week. If you have for it.

Rob
Absolutely. Yeah, it’s it’s certainly something that is important and hopefully. Like you said, if if anybody’s a a man or a woman, listening can benefit from from these things we’re talking about. Whether it’s just, you know, connecting with someone else and saying, you know, I understand that fear, then you know, if we we can sort of have that impact that that’s great like it really. Like you said, there’s just two guys talking about things we’ve experienced and it it’s certainly. A much bigger topic. As you said, than than half an hour or 40 minutes can can really do justice. So we can certainly we can certainly maybe open ourselves up to the conversation next week and and see where it takes us.

Mukund
Sure, rob. So with that, let’s let’s close today’s episode. Thanks again for your time and let’s talk soon.

Rob
Thank you. Sounds great, man. I’ll talk. To you next week.