Rob

What separates people who bend under pressure from those who come back stronger? In a world moving faster than ever before, the ability to adapt isn’t just a career skill, it’s a life skill. In this episode of the Mental Wealth Podcast, we welcome back clinical psychologist Dr. Ethan Levine as we unpack the psychology behind mental resilience. why our brains are wired to fear change, how stress physically limits our ability to think clearly, and what any of us can do, starting today, to build the mental agility to face whatever comes next. I think you guys are really going to enjoy this one. Dr. Levine, I just want to get into the idea of change if I can. With the things that are taking place around us politically, technology-wise, This sort of high-stress, high-stakes environment, what kind of impact does that have on us psychologically, on our brains, on our psyche? What’s going on when we deal with this kind of rapid change?

Dr. Ethan Levine

What happens is that there’s so much simulation. If people have capacity, some people can handle one thing, some people can handle two things. Now we’re faced with hundreds of different things, whether it’s visual stimulus, it’s emails, how many spam messages do you get? Try watching a television show and there’s all kinds of advertisements, much less turn on the news. One of the things that’s happened that’s really different is that things are real time. So if we have a war going on, you’re getting live footage. In the past, people would feel like, I can control it, my neural network is sufficient. But when you start seeing things like bombings or terrorist acts or war in real time, it feels more real to people. So then their neural network starts reacting to it. It’s one thing to watch an old movie in black and white and people don’t personalize it, but now all of a sudden, People are not, they’re not sure, is this going to happen to me? And I think that’s changed in a clinical practice. I can speak to both clinical practice and organizational practice. In a clinical practice, there’s a much higher percentage of people are coming in with anxiety disorders, and they report it as being, I can’t stop it. It’s uncontrolled. In an organizational capacity, what I’ve heard in my prior role directing psych therapy and change management, I saw people constantly saying, stop, stop changing things. Even though if you look at the reality, the changes may only have been incremental, but it’s the frequency of change that is disrupting people’s way of thinking. Sometimes people have the capacity to think about those and compartmentalize. The word compartmentalize comes up a lot. But I find that people need things to be more tangible. So I will occasionally advise someone to say, if you have 12 things on your plate, all right, now create 12 folders or 12 envelopes. And as there’s something that you get more input about an area, put it in that envelope and decide at the beginning of the day which envelope you’re going to work on. That would be true personally or it’d be true organizationally. The comeback always is, well, I have to do it all. And I’ll say, yeah, sure. I’ve had as a senior leader in large corporations, that happens all the time. In fact, I guarantee more often than not, you have more than you can handle at one time. But in a moment, you can only handle one thing. So which one is it? I.

Rob

Think that’s a great point about cut and departmentalization in terms of dealing with the one thing at a time and trying to focus your energies on the things that you can control. Do you see reactions from people that are overwhelmed that they can take from their everyday life to say like, wait a second, maybe I’m overwhelmed by this stimuli that maybe I need to seek help for this because I’m just so stressed out?

Dr. Ethan Levine

Yeah, you have to trust yourself. If you feel overwhelmed, then the answer is get help. Because if I was able to do it and manage it, I would be managing it. And there’s still some sense of… You think about my granddaughter, one of her favorite phrases, I do it, I do it. And we grow up with that independence and people somehow they look at the idea of asking for help as a failure on their part. I can tell you this is true clinically and this is true corporately. I worked for a guy running a 25,000 person company. And he said to me one time, he said, I never let people in because I feel like they’re looking to me to do it all. I advise people, well, try a baby step. Just ask for a little bit of help and see what difference does it make? Do it as an experiment. You don’t have to go all the way that direction, asking for help for everything or asking for help for nothing. Try things piecemeal. There’s no shame in asking for help. If you get too much into the emotional part of it, then people feel more overwhelmed. But if you describe it symbolically, like if you want to build a new house, can you do it yourself? And you say, oh yeah, I can build a house myself. All right, are you going to pour the concrete? Are you going to bring the concrete to your house? are you going to cut the wood? Even though you don’t think about it, you’re using help all the way there.

Rob

When you’re talking about corporate leaders, how much do you think that comes from the fear of failure?

Dr. Ethan Levine

I think most of your listeners and you and I know that the sense of having failed is internal because there is no absolute that this was a success, this was a failure. To be more specific about it. So I had a unique experience in my life of on the same day, within 30 minutes, I found out that I was going to be a dad for the first time, and I found out I lost my job. My approach to that was to say, all right, I have an issue. I have to get a job because I am thrilled to be a dad. Me being who I am, I applied to probably 500 jobs in the next week. And when I tell this story to people, I mean, I applied everything from working in a grocery store to professional level jobs. And I ended up within a month getting a phenomenal opportunity at New England Culinary Institute. Now, if you really look at the story, I got one job. I only got one offer out of 500 applications. Is that a success or is that a failure? I said it was an incredible success because I achieved what I wanted to achieve. So how we frame things, how we think about things, have a lot to do with how we feel, you know, self-esteem, self-worth, And the more you can adapt a point of view that is success focus, that’s happy focus, then you’re going to be more satisfied in your life.

Rob

The framing idea is such a great way to look at it, that kind of experience. I would imagine that kind of adversity, too, must have framed your way of thinking as well. You’re thinking, well, I’ve got to find this job. I’ve got to do this relatively quickly. There’s no greater motivator, right, than having a child.

Dr. Ethan Levine

There was another piece of that, which was I gave myself permission to think about or feel what happened in losing a job after I had a new job. And at that point, It was, I didn’t care. Once I had the new job, it didn’t matter. But you give, giving yourself permission to have those feelings is really important too. I hear a lot of people say, probably more in the clinical setting, oh my God, I can’t watch what’s going on. Don’t tell me anything about what’s going on in the world. Don’t tell me about politics. and they’ve insulated themselves rather than you could reframe that in a way to say, look, you know, I get overwhelmed because I dive too deep into these things, but I do want to know top line what’s going on. I think it’s important. So learning what your limits are, what your tolerance is, rather than making things black and white is a real secret to success for people.

Rob

Is that Is that like a form of exposure therapy? Taking it in a little bit of the news, even if it’s negative news, doing it in small bites, can that build a resilience in your brain?

Dr. Ethan Levine

Yeah, I mean, it’s desensitization. You know, it’s just taking what you can tolerate. I had a really interesting, this is related to food, but I have a friend who has been gluten intolerant for a long time. She went to Italy And she said, how could I not eat this bread? And she discovered she didn’t have a reaction. All of a sudden, she’s now slowly introducing gluten and discovering actually she can tolerate it just fine. We were talking about the increase in anxiety. Imagine if I don’t know if I can talk to you about something. So we’re never going to have a good relationship if I can’t talk to you. So you feel more isolated. To me, the biggest answer is find ways to take care of yourself. you know, things you can control. I can control my diet. I can control where I go. Physical health is extremely important at this time. You know, just exercise, going for a walk. My newest thing that I’ve done this year is I’ve started going regularly to a flotation tank. And it’s the most physically and mentally relaxing thing I’ve ever done. On the physical level, the flotation tanks have Epsom salts. Epsom salts are good for inflammation. So if you have anything that is inflamed, joints or whatever that ache, by the end of the hour, that pain is gone for a week. It’s amazing. I’m not saying go to a flotation tank, but go sit by the ocean, go to the mountains. Go see a funny movie that makes you laugh so hard that you start crying.

Rob

Flotation Tank, just on that topic, it sort of brings to me to the idea of sensory input. We’re sort of like connecting it to our phones, to media. There is no greater… sensory deprivation than those tanks where you just focus on your thought, what are you feeling in your body? And it’s exactly what you were saying in terms of isolating those variables and removing those stresses. Like that is probably the ultimate stress removal. device, process, however you want to frame that, because it’s almost like you can’t focus on anything else. This is exactly the only thing, the only input you are getting is that experience.

Dr. Ethan Levine

We’ve been talking about overstimulation. This is letting go. There is nothing there. You’re just able to relax. It’s an amazing feeling. I always get out feeling happy.

Rob

I’ve got to try one of those. Every report I’ve heard about people that have tried that have said it is a game changer for you, for your mental health and your way of thinking and framing.

Dr. Ethan Levine

Some people try yoga, some people meditate. It’s the same kind of thing where in yoga, you’re exercising your body in ways that allow you to release that external noise. meditation, it’s releasing the noise. A lot of what we’ve gotten away from, because what people have the radio on, they have… things they’re listening to in their earbuds, that some people sit in front of the television, it’s too much stimulation. In fact, in a way, we’re doing the opposite of what we really need to do.

Rob

Yeah, it’s almost like we’re training our brains to deal, to handle the distraction, and we are adapting in almost the wrong way. We have to realign what our natural processes should be and the way our brains work a little bit more. Looking at the technology side of things now in terms of companies that are trying to figure out how to deal with AI, for example, what are leaders saying to you in terms of how they deal with teams, how they communicate with teams in terms of the impact that AI is having on their organization?

Dr. Ethan Levine

There’s two sides of it. One is my daughter just got a new job and part of her assignment is to figure out how to utilize AI in the most effective way across the enterprise. So this is a company that’s being thoughtful about how they use it and what the impact would be. I hear that AI certainly simplifies things in a way that people are stunned, actually. An example of a friend who’s part of a large psychiatry organization And they’re developing protocols using AI because they’ve discovered that AI can gather more and better data than they could do by themselves. As it relates to the human experience, though, this is where I hear friction from executives. What they say is that people feel like all of a sudden human resources is not human anymore. It’s just a computer making decisions. It’s an algorithm. Are you able to get this health care coverage or not? And people are feeling really alienated from the company, from the leadership, if there’s an overemphasis. Again, the flip side of it, things like some targeted chemotherapy and medicine, where through AI and understanding the body and now 3D mapping of the body, all of a sudden, We can deliver medicine to the exact cells that are being affected. So on the technology side, people like that and they value that. Where they struggle is when AI is taken over for people and they miss the warmth, they miss that connection. The first principle is you have to get people’s thoughts about how they’re going to react to things before you do it. because there’s always unanticipated consequences. So it’s a principle of change management. You go in and you talk to people and say, here’s what we’re proposing to do. Tell me what I don’t know. A good leader will ask for direct feedback. What don’t I know? What am I not anticipating in doing this? The second thing is communicate and have a feedback channel. So A CEO that I know, I love what he does. He has town halls quarterly in the company. And anyone who’s asked a question, he follows up with a individual phone call. So he keeps the personal touch in there to make sure he understands people. The last piece is being flexible. You have the unanticipated consequences. The worst thing you can possibly do is say, oh, we’re just going to stick to it. Be flexible and say, all right, so we screwed up. We’ll make it right. Good leaders are humble and make sure that their approach to leadership, whether it’s AI or other facets of leadership, that they’re open to feedback. And the more critical the feedback is, the more thankful they are that people were willing to open up. They created an environment of trust.

Rob

For the employee side, if they are now on the other side of that, they might be struggling with the idea of, I’ve been told to use AI or any sort of technology or any sort of change within the organizational structure. Are there tools that they can use to balance how they deal with the day-to-day environment and also communicate with leadership when being told to implement these technologies that might have an impact on their day-to-day role?

Dr. Ethan Levine

One piece of it is to encourage your employees not to mandate things initially, but to give, ask people to try stuff. Give the example of ChatGPT. People have had some averse reactions to being told this is the format you use or this is the technology. But somebody that I coach said to me, you know, they had to put together a project plan and then they said, what the heck, they’re telling us this is technology we should be using. And I tried and said, wait, what? That I was able to have a first draft in 5 minutes instead of five days. The other piece that really is important is that people understand this is a piece of their life. This is not their whole life. It’s a piece of their life. So make sure that they’re doing those things outside of the scope of work that nourish them. You know, work works. That’s another factor in there that has really created some challenges because people are not with people. They don’t see people. You might see it on the screen, but they don’t see it in person. And that’s contributed to that sense of alienation. So when you add on the layer of needing to use AI tools or other types of things, and you’re not connecting with people, a lot of times I’ve seen in companies that what happens is people who should be part of a discussion are not part of a discussion because they weren’t in the same room. They’re just working through technology and people end up getting left out. So the answer I give people is make sure that you’re very clear about what makes you feel good. What are the things that make, Rob, what are the things that make you feel good Because at the end of the day, we’re talking about your life. We’re not talking about your job. We’re talking about your life. So what do you get from work? I mean, is it imbalanced? Can you get money? You get intellectual stimulation? Maybe there’s things you used to get because we all used to be in the office and we’d have lunch together or go out after work or something. But now it’s all via e-mail or text or video. I think people don’t realize that some of the technology inadvertently has taken away some of the human contact, but make sure you do get it somewhere else.

Rob

When you’re speaking there about the social impact of people working online, there is this idea that people have lost their, I think they call them second spaces, where it’s… a coffee shop or a different environment where they would normally meet people. All the studies say that Gen. Z is not going out as much, they’re not meeting in person as much anymore. They’re staying home, they’re staying within their sort of structures. They’re meeting differently. Let’s put it that way. Maybe they’re meeting online, Snapchat, whatever app they’re using. When you see within your clinical practice how people respond to these online changes, working remotely, the next generation now is going to be doing that more and more. How do you see that playing out? What is the next stage of that process?

Dr. Ethan Levine

You have to contextualize what’s the situation, because there’s an element of it. You can do online dating. Maybe the people tell you they’re so and so and they’re not really that person. But what I see happening right now is in this generation more is a lack of focus. Because what happens is you get on a video call, how many people have their screens shut off and they’re multitasking? I managed a group of 60 people and I knew who was multitasking and who’s not. It’s not a surprise. I understand why they’re doing it. So I’m really coming at this from the back end and to the front that I think that as leaders, we need to essentially create protocols mandate that people stay connected. If we’re having a conversation, you have the video on. If you have something else you need to do, go ahead and go off and do that other thing. But you can’t do both. So what that does is is people end up being isolated. They wonder why they don’t feel connected. Well, they didn’t turn the video on. So I think that it’s on us as leaders to encourage and mandate that people do things that create the connection. It comes back to the sense of deliberateness about what’s important to you. What makes you feel good? What’s exciting in your life? Make sure you deliberately create the opportunities for you to get those experiences. You know, it’s funny working in long-term care a long time. I never once heard anyone say, I wish I had more money. My whole career, not once, they always said, I wish I had more connection. I wish I took more adventures. I wish I loved more. Not one time from any person, and I’ve dealt with thousands of people in that environment. So what that says to me, that human nature is not really that different than it was 100 years ago. It’s just we have these other things that are distracting us, sometimes to the detriment of making those connections.

Rob

Distraction is a great way of framing it too. It’s what is your experience, what are you feeling, and how do you frame that? And how do you deal with what the environment is throwing at you?

Dr. Ethan Levine

What you were saying made me think about how there’s all these 3D goggles. So people have replaced walking in the woods. with wearing goggles where you’re having the experience, people have never really walked in the woods if they’re perfectly happy with the 3D goggles. The word that comes to mind is wonderment, connecting with people, connecting with nature. Technology can never replace that. You look at the astronauts that just went on a little journey around the moon. The technology afforded them the chance to go on that journey. But what was the stuff that’s emphasized in the story? The story is we saw for the first time this crater on the dark side of the moon. It’s not the technology, which is extraordinary, that you could shoot people into space and they fly around the moon and then come back home and land in the ocean. That wasn’t the emphasis. The astronauts, in being interviewed, talked about the wonderment of human experience.

Rob

That’s a great overarching point about exploring the world around us and getting away from the artificial.

Dr. Ethan Levine

We’re all dealing with this in some way, shape, or form. And the world is very challenging right now. And yet when you think about what the end of the day made your life worthwhile, it’s not going to be technology. It’s not. So my advice to people is seek it out. My advice to CEOs who feel like they’re disconnected, well, start traveling around, talking to your people in your company. That’s what we need. And if you deliberately commit to it, I guarantee your life will be better.

Rob

I know for myself, speaking personally, it’s a good reminder to just get outside and touch grass every once in a while and make a connection.

Dr. Ethan Levine

I’ll tell you a funny story. A lot of people are very extroverted and certainly have no boundaries in terms of being willing to talk to people. My wife, a little bit the opposite. We were doing a little cleaning and I found this hat in the closet I hadn’t seen in years. And it said, say yes to the dress. And it reminded me of the experience that I was in an airport and saw a guy wearing a jacket that said, Say yes to the dress. And I thought, Well, that’s interesting. So I went up and asked him. Turns out he’s the guy who was the producer of the show. And he said, If you find this interesting, he said, Sent us all hats. You know, it’s like that kind of little anecdote in my life. It’s not the most earth-shattering, meaningful thing ever, but that’s something I remember.

Rob

Like you said, it’s the meaning behind it. The meaning behind it is really the story.

Dr. Ethan Levine

Exactly. I mean, even in our evolving friendship.

Rob

I always love these kind of interactions because I get to learn about different things, but also just finding more about you and your experience. And hopefully people listening really connect with some of these topics. Lots of people right now are trying to figure out like, okay, how do I deal with this? How do I deal with whether it’s AI, whether it’s technology, whether it’s the economy, gas prices, all the other stresses that are impacting the world around us right now. And these kind of conversations are not only helpful on an individual basis, but I’m sure lots of people listening to this now are going, wait a second, There are other people dealing with this problem. Okay, I’ll deal with these problems one step at a time. I’ll look at it differently. I’ll go outside, I’ll meet a friend, I’ll go get coffee, I’ll do a different thing. These are simple strategies, but such an important reminder to what’s important.

Dr. Ethan Levine

I don’t know that if I’ve ever shared one of my favorite phrases that I use both in clinical practice and in consulting. which is we all have a delusion of uniqueness. We all think nobody has experienced this. Nobody has thought this.

Rob

We are individual and we have universal experiences. We go through similar things and it’s important to stress the importance of what is the most important thing to you right now and how to identify that, first of all, and how to remind yourself of that when the phone is going off, when your boss is calling, when you’ve got different things going on. The news is just overwhelming. What are the important things outside of that? Thank you so much for your time, Doctor. I can’t stress enough that this is so important to people and we always appreciate these conversations. They are, I think, becoming more important for various reasons to have these conversations and Thank you again for all your expertise and your guidance and the techniques you’ve shared too, because some of these tangible techniques are going to be really helpful to individuals in their day-to-day life. We really appreciate your time, Dr. Olivier.

Dr. Ethan Levine

Any time that it can be helpful to you or your listeners, I’m happy to do so.

Rob

I look forward to speaking with you again.

Dr. Ethan Levine

All right, take good care. Bye.

Rob

You too. Bye for now.